Is everyone okay?

[MovieStuff]

Mattias wrote:

"do you think he will like americans more, or less, if his house gets blown up by an american "revenge operation?"

Oh, please. I couldn't care less. More to the point, you act as if these people have no control over this situation and that's bullshit. I never said that killing innocent people was okay nor did I say they were evil because they were Muslims. But if they give refuge to murderers and terrorists, then they aren't "innocents", now are they? If they don't want to face the wrath of a pissed off US military, then fork over the bad guys and make sure none of their more misguided people do this sort of thing again.

I'm sorry, but I just can't reconcile the idea of an "innocent" public when I see broadcasts of children that have been taught to hate US citizens dancing in the street in celebration of 50,000 "innocents" dying over here.

And THAT'S the big difference, Mattias.

When the US has felt it necessary to bomb the living shit out of a country, you will NEVER find Americans dancing in the street in celebration at the loss of human life in another country. We abhor it and always try to find another way. We even give countries fair warning and time to evacuate, when we can.

They, on the other hand, breed ignorance and hate and encourage violence and revenge as a way of life, not as a "last resort" against an enemy that attacks without provocation. Children dance in the street over there every time an American dies. Now, WHO taught them that?

I know you are not condoning what these bastards did, Mattias. But there just isn't any argument that you can make here that will even remotely rationalize these peoples' actions. Not in the eyes of an American, at any rate.

Roger

[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited September 12, 2001).]

[Hanthx]

Spoke to Nigel this morning, he's not in New York anymore. All is cool.

Scott

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[John Clark]

This is what we know now. Two planes smashed into both towers. One plane crashed into the Pentagon. One plane crashed in a field. The planes that crashed into the WTC were successful. The plane that crashed into the Pentagon was originally meant to kill the President and destroy the White House. Now the plane that crashed into the field...
A man called his wife from the plane to tell her what was happening. They confrenced the call with a 911 operator. That is when he learned of the other kamikaze like attacks. That man told the other passengers what was going on and what was going to happen. They willingly chose to die in order to keep from being used as a weapon.
Also. A bomb was found on the Washington Bridge before it went off killing untold thousands trying to get home. An attack against Air Force One failed to work; details unrevealed.
Out of all the carnage the terrorist/monsters only succeeded once. Only ONE goal was accomplished. We were very lucky yesterday people, our entire nation was almost crippled by a dozen people who were willing to die to accomplish their goals armed with one inch razor blades, and it may have been saved by one man who learned about the WTC and the people who followed him into death.
Now the truly sad part. We are all at war. This is just the beginning. The next attack can be anywhere at anytime and kill anybody. It is time to unite and stand firm. To put all, ALL, differences behind. If we do not stand together now and forever this can be the beginning of the end of the United States of America. I actually heard people talking today where I work about moving their kids to Canada to keep them away from the draft just in case it comes back. They were ready to jump ship now, at the very begging of the coming conflict.
I am ready to die like that man, giving my life so that our freedom stays intact. I am a natural cynic, but I do believe in the overall inner strength of Americans.
Jeremy Glick, the man who died to prevent the terrorists from killing even more people, should never be forgotten.

Also, nation wide people who have ancestry from the Middle East, or only happen to have a dark complexion, are being harassed and attacked by frightened fools. These are our brothers and sisters who have been in this country for generations. Most have a deeper respect for our rights then those of us who consider ourselves ?real? Americans because they know what it is like to have no freedom. This is what the bastards wanted. If we are to survive that means that this type of atrocity has to stop immediately. I call on all of you who read this to speak up publicly and openly against all of those you see submitting to fear and ignorance. We will be harassed also, and we may be physically attacked, but we have to do everything that we can to stop this degeneration of our society IMEDIATELY! No matter the place, no matter the circumstance, no matter the person. The situation is too fragile now and evil spreads when good people do nothing.

Thank you for that Canadian editorial Trevor, you might want to post it at other sites. I think other people would benifit from it right now.

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"Beware the fury of a patient man"-John Dryden


"What does it profit God to take the young, rending the cloth of his blessing undone?"-Griffin Silver
"Nothing is certain but the unforeseen."-fortune cookie.

[Matt Pacini]

O.K., my two cents!

The Kyoto treaty is a hoax, just like global warming.
It's just another device to blame America, and get us to part with our cash.
By the way, the biggest poluters, by far, as Eastern European countries.

And Alex, this "we use more energy than we produce" is total B.S.
Even if it is true:
1. It's irrelevant, because we BUY that energy from other countries. Is it evil that we buy more stereo's from Japan than we produce? Totally irrelevant, and anyone who drives a car, lives in a house, or otherwise has the same basic western lifestyle, is a total hypocrite even mentioning this!
Sell all your possesions, live in a tent, cook your meals over a fire, and then you have the right to say there's something wrong with this.

As far as us being "We are a benevolent monster.", we feed almost the whole damn planet with our aid to foreign countries, and we protect God knows how many other countries, so they can spend almost all their money on quality of life things, instead of having to pay for a massive military.
How much money do you think say, Denmark or France, or Canada, or Mexico puts into military funding? Why bother?
If attacked, we will always save their asses.
So they get more of their money in health care, food, and whatever.
This makes us "monsters"?
By the way, what car do you drive?
Where do you get YOUR gas & oil?
So just complaining about something, does not make you somehow less resonsible for the problem you proclaim exists.
I think this is the new morality, thanks to the 60's:
It doesn't make any difference whatsoever what you actually do or don't do, it's your opinions that count.
I saw a girl in the mall once, with a sweatshirt that said "house the homeless".
I walked up to her, and said "excuse me, but I was wondering if you actually have invited any homeless people to come live with you?".
She looked at me like I was from Mars, and walked off.
Just bitching, and "sending a message" has become "doing something about the problem".

I agree with Roger, let the bastards burn in hell.
And by the way, I'm referring to those responsible, and those backing them.

I have many Middle Eastern friends, and I'm against any stereotyping of them.
In fact, last night, I went to an Indian restaurant I occasionally go to, not only because I like the food, but I wanted them to realize that not all Americans think everyone with dark skin is evil.
They said not one white customer had come in all day.

Matt Pacini


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[Alex]

The Kyoto treaty is a hoax, just like global warming.
-Matt P.


When someone runs the show (the U.S.), any request that runs against the status quo is rejected. (the Kyoto Treaty)
-Alex

================================================== ==================================================


Alex Wrote "Our country recently thumbed it's nose at the Kyoto treaty, a treaty signed by 180 other countries."
-Alex


This is not true. Most countries have not signed this treaty.
-Jerry V.


180 countries is a pretty significant amount of countries, is it not?
-Alex


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We have maximum freedom of speech in a country that does not listen.

Do you think we can convince Kodak to keep making Kodachrome Super-8,...it is not good for the shareholders, so in the dumper it goes.

Ironically enough, Kodak will use the ecology as the excuse, even though only one lab in the U.S. currently processes Kodachrome 40.

-Alex


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[Alex]

By the way, what car do you drive?
Matt P.

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I eschewed buying a new car gas guzzler.

I have two cars I alternate driving. Both are really neat tin can cars, one gets 22 miles to the gallon, the other gets 25 miles to the gallon...one car is 20 years old, the other is 23 years old...the 23 year old was passed down from my brother about 10 years ago, the 20 year old I bought 13 years ago from the original owner.

The interior space to miles per gallon these +20 year old cars offer me easily outperforms at least 95% of all new cars currently in production.

For shame, and what arrogance by this country to not improve gas mileage in our automobiles of any consequence IN 20 YEARS!

We've taken all technical and computer driven improvements that could have led to better gas mileage, and made our cars bigger, heavier, roomier, more powerful and luxurious.

Keep in mind, my 20+ year old cars used to get in the 30's in gas mileage, so even with 20 years of aging of the original engine and transmission, my cars are still more efficient in interior space / miles per gallon than virtually all new cars currently being manufactured, and they pass their smog tests.

I call that American Arrogance...to take innovation and put it all into everything but improving gas mileage.

Check out the ads for new cars....THEY NEVER mention miles per gallon, they do go on and on about luxury, power, convenience, looks.

Check out how much we spend on military
every year to watch over our foreign "interests"...meaning, "I am an energy addict, don't even think of messing with my oil supply".

It isn't cool to focus on efficiency first in this country....everything is ratings driven, and sexy is always in...

Lets count the number of hours devoted in this country to OJ Simpson trial, The Clinton "Scandal", Gary Condit,..... How many stories in recent weeks about alleged terrorism were bypassed so we could follow Gary Condit around.

Sorry, but real issues always take a backseat in this country...and they only get talked about in times of tragedy.

The holding back of energy efficiency products fuels the Yuppie American Economy, and eventually, the rest of the world will hate us for being energy hogs.

The religious fanaticism we think this was about is a red herring for the underlying anger by others who have a lower standard of life.

Who's fault is the lower standard of life in other parts of the world?

Well, when Corporate America has it's hand in every corner of the globe, it makes it real easy to blame U.S.....

Whether we deserve it or not.

Promoting energy efficiency as a way of life would do a lot to appease the slowly growing tide of apprehension in different parts of the world anticipating their chance to have a similar economy to that of the United States will never materialize because we are 5% of the world's population using 25% of the world's resources.

-Alex


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[crimsonson]

Matt P:
"I have many Middle Eastern friends, and I'm against any stereotyping of them. In fact, last night, I went to an Indian restaurant I occasionally go to, not only because I like the food, but I wanted them to realize that not all Americans think everyone with dark skin is evil.
They said not one white customer had come in all day"

You just did, since India is a MOSTLY HINDU Nation, is in south Asia (not Middle East) and has nothing to do with WTC. Matt, why do you have to justify your attitude towards American Indians? Its like justifying your feelings about English to French people? Unfortunately, (I hope I am wrong) you made a subtle form of ignorance. Its unfortunate when people group India, PAkistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, UAE, SA, etc in to one big ball of anti Americans. For crying out loud you might as well apologize to Indonesians and Malaysians and Nepalese and Bhurmese, etc also.
As a NYer I am in tears about WTC. But please, as NYer I cherish our unique standing in the world as the most diverse and tolerant city in the world. Please dont blemish that thought. As I repeated on another forum, during the whole day of 9-11, not one coworker, peer, friends or family members uttered the words of Muslim or Arab until the press uttered those words. Nor we needed to walk in store to apologize to anyone. Its amazing when there is more Anti Arab sentiment and 'patrotism' OUTSIDE of NY.

Moviestuff:
Cockroach? Allah? Im sorry if I think your poetry is racist and primitive. Do you have a grasp the meaing of 'Allah'? Nowhere in yo poetry you make a distinction between Muslim Terrorists and average Muslim person. And anyway who said that WTC destruction were perpetuated by Musilm terrorist? IF in the end they do prove that, the substance and timing of your poetry is still inexcusable.


Sincerly,
A NYer who thinks its getting uglier by each and every post.

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[This message has been edited by crimsonson (edited September 13, 2001).]

[Dominic3]

Mattias , Alex, Mat Pacini, Moviestuff

Check your premises Mattias. The Islamic fundamentalists and terrorists uphold medieval views of existence & obedience - any notion of the pursuit of one's own happiness and the rejection of their morality of blind obedience and sacrifice is violently opposed.

The extremist Palestinians in Israel are NOT fighting for freedom of the individual or economic freedom. They are fighting for collectivism and mysticism. I know of professional Palestinians who have fled to Jordan because of Arafat's socialist economic polices and his raketeering.

Matt Pacini is right about Kyoto. Pollution is a TECHNICAL problem not a POLITCAL one. Currently the cause has been hijacked by activists and intellectuals who see the environmental movement as a convenient way of controlling the means of production of the biggest wealth producing nations in the world. Human survival depends upon man's success at production, without which man would be reduced to the diseases and poverty of the middle ages.

[MovieStuff]

Previously, crimsonson wrote:

"Cockroach? Allah? Im sorry if I think your poetry is racist and primitive."

Yeah, kind of like flying three jets into buildings full of people guilty of no offense other than "being American." THAT'S as racist and primitive as you can get, dude.

Continuing, you wrote:

"Do you have a grasp the meaing of 'Allah'?"

Sure. The bigger question is do THEY?

And finally, you wrote:

"Nowhere in yo poetry you make a distinction between Muslim Terrorists and average Muslim person."

No, but if you read my entire post, I make it clear that I don't think all Muslims are bad people. However, the "distinction between Muslim Terrorists and average Muslim person" is totally within the power of every individual Muslim living in that country that might even consider giving these perpetrators sanction and safe harbor. That distinction gets fuzzier and fuzzier every time I see children dancing in the street over there. They don't come out of the womb like that. They have to be taught to be "racist and primitive". In all, I'd put my poetic skills up against their humanitarian skills any day of the week.

I am sorry if I offended you, crimsonson. These are emotional times. I feel what I feel and I can't do anything about it. Also, I don't think Matt Pacini was being ignorant or racisist at all. I think he was showing great support for mideasterners in the best way he knew how and I applaud him.

Alex..... What can I say? You drive a car by choice. You seem to think that because it's old it makes you somehow immune to introspection and takes you out of the responsibility loop for all the things you complained about. I expected no less from you, though. At least you're predictable. Still, I am glad that you're safe, as is everyone else on this board, it would seem.

Roger


[This message has been edited by MovieStuff (edited September 13, 2001).]

[AlexGfromUK]

neither the kyoto treaty or global warning are hoaxes, how the hell could you possibly hope to argue that?

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